The 2News and Salt Lake Tribune
Main Street Debate
Live! This is a 2News / Salt Lake Tribune Main Street Debate. The race for Utah Governor.

2News Rod Decker moderating:

Good evening.  This is the KUTV 2 News / Salt Lake Tribune Main Street Debate. And our debaters, we have Democrat, Scott Matheson, Jr., Republican, Jon Huntsman, Jr. Both of these gentlemen are running for Governor of the State of Utah. We've got a large crowd here whom we're going to ask not to applaud, not to applaud until the end of the show. We want all our time for the debaters here.

For starters, we have Miss Janice Voorhies who, for seventeen years, has taught English at Bingham High and she has a question for the two candidates.

Ma'am.

Miss Janice Voorhies:

Mr. Matheson and Mr. Huntsman, last week in my senior English class of 36, seven or eight kids were absent due to a school activity. I was shocked to rediscover how much time I could spend with individual students when my classroom size was smaller than the average high school class. What I want to know from you is what kind of a specific plan do each of you have for reducing class size in Utah's seriously overcrowded schools?

Rod Decker:

Let's start with you, Mr. Matheson.

(D) Scott Matheson:

Thank you. Thank you very much for the question. It's great to be here.

Our class sizes in Utah are the largest in the country. All the studies indicate that if we can reduce class size, especially for certain key subjects such as English, our students can do better. So reducing class size has to be a goal for the Utah educational system. This doesn't come without cost, however, and it seems to me that we're going to have to look at this as a long term plan. It's going to take some resources. And we're going to have to set some priorities about where that class size reduction takes place.

We're going to have to bring supplemental instruction in, as well, to assist with individualized attention, but it's very important that we address class size and you experienced it in your class last week.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, Rod, let me thank you for having us here.

And thank you for the question. And thank you for being a teacher. My kids are at public schools and I see the fruits of your labor everyday. And I've got to tell you, some classes, from what my kids tell me, are more important than others in terms of class size. And I think you hit on an important one, which is English.

And it's going to cost. I think that's absolutely correct. And, I've got an economic plan that I think is good for the state longer term. I think it's exactly what education needs. We need more funding. We need to broaden our revenue base. And that's exactly what we have not had recently. That's what I intend to do if I'm elected Governor.

Furthermore, I think we need to ensure that we get more funding from the point of appropriation, which is about 2.4 billion dollars last year, 2.5 this next year, all the way through to the classroom. And I don't know that we're applying enough scrutiny in terms of ensuring that as much of that money as possible gets to the teacher, and gets to the students.

Ultimately, I think we can also look to what charter schools are doing. I was a participant in the opening of the 29 charter school recently. They have caps on their class size. It's at 25. And I think that's probably something we all ought to aspire to. And based on what the experts tell me, 25 is probably something that we ought to keep in mind in terms of the size that is manageable.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[If I had been invited, I would thank Rod Decker and Channel 2 for this opportunity.  I agree with my fellow candidates that class size is a serious problem.  My solution would be to encourage private education with vouchers and tax credits.  If the vouchers are approximately half the per-pupil cost in the public schools, and many private schools can provide a superior product at such a price, then the other half of the money saved for each child leaving the public classroom could add to the funding for those who have not yet made the transition to a superior system.]

Rod Decker:

You mention charter schools, Mr. Huntsman. Will you favor a tax credit or a voucher plan where kids can leave the public schools and take some money with them to go to a private school?

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, can you  wave a magic wand and get vouchers overnight? I don't think so. But I think you can test the underlying economic assumption.   And I think you can start by taking those who have fallen through the cracks, or those who have special needs in education. And I think the Carson Smith Special Needs legislation, that was endorsed by The Salt Lake Tribune, among others, editorialized in favor, is the right place to start.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Matheson, do you favor a  voucher or tax credit plan?

(D) Scott Matheson:

No, I don't.  I don't think it fits the context of Utah education where 97% of our kids are in the public system. By the way, we had a bill before the Legislature last session. It was sponsored by Representative Farron(sp?). That was an across-the-street tuition tax credit bill and Mr. Huntsman has indicated he would have signed that bill if he were Governor.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[Public education was forced on our State Founders as a condition of statehood, just like the anti-polygamy ordinance in Article III of our Constitution.  It has three fundamental flaws.  First it teaches the students that education is an entitlement and that the taxpayers should be their personal slaves.  Second, it loses the power of free enterprise that always increases value in any product or service.  Third, it puts young children in front of an adult authority figure who may not share the values of their parents.  Brigham Young said he would never let anyone teach his children if they did not share his beliefs.]

[Vouchers and tax credits are a good transition method to a system more in compliance with the principles of our Founders, without disrupting anyone's education.  I oppose government charter schools.]

Rod Decker:

Will you vote to raise taxes, or will you sign a bill that raises taxes, or push the Legislature to raise taxes for education if you're elected Governor, Mr. Matheson?

(D) Scott Matheson:

I am not advocating taxes. I think with what we need to do, in the first instance, is look for all the savings that we can find. I'm not ruling that out, though, if that's the tough choice that we need to make down the road.

Rod Decker:

Will you raise taxes for education?

(R) Jon Huntsman:

This is a mighty important discussion. I am not captive of any special interest group out there. I have not sought the support or endorsement of any special interest group. I'm not in the hip pocket of the UEA. I'm not in the hip pocket of anyone else. I'm going to look at it from a good public policy standpoint. I don't anticipate that taxes will have to be raised. I'm gonna to look at deficiencies first to pay for education.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[I have signed a solemn promise to oppose and veto any bill for initiating or raising any tax.  If there is an emergency and a tax increase is absolutely necessary, I'm sure the Legislature will be able to do it over my veto.  I will not violate my sacred promise.]

Rod Decker:

OK, but both of you are a pretty firm maybe on that. I don't hear, I don't hear a clear yes or a clear no. Both of you, both of you gentlemen, if I am correct, endorsed Initiative One which would raise taxes for open space. Are you saying it's okay to raise taxes for open space, but not okay, or maybe just maybe pay taxes for education?

Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, I'm saying that Initiative One is a referendum. Let the people speak. I'll have one vote like a whole lot of other people. And I happen to support that Initiative.

Rod Decker:

Will you, would you address that? You are supporting Initiative One? Is it okay to raise them for open space but not for education?

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, I wouldn't quite put it that way, Rod, but it's a penny on twenty dollars. Fourteen dollars per family per year. And it's an investment for the long term that will preserve farmland, wildlife land, and it's an important Initiative, then, that we're both supporting that.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[I oppose Initiative 1.  Not just because I cannot support any tax increase.  Initiative 1 is not a wise idea.  It is not the job of government to buy private land to provide open spaces.  The third fundamental principle of government, listed in the Declaration of Independence, is that the only just purpose of government is to secure the equal inalienable rights of all individuals.  Government ownership of open lands goes beyond that purpose.  Therefore, I oppose it as would all the signers of the Founding Documents of the United States.  In fact, I would work to return to Utah all lands within our boundaries now owned by the Federal Government, and eventually transfer them into the hands of private individuals and organizations, such as the Native American Nations.]

Rod Decker:

Kirsten Stewart is a reporter at The Salt Lake Tribune. Your question, ma'am.

Kirsten Stewart:

Hi, gentlemen. The popular mantra today is no new taxes, but Utah's population is booming, and that means more strain on an already lean state budget. Pretend you've won the election and legislators come to you and say, there's only enough money to invest in either job education, or job growth, education, transportation, or health care. Which do you pick?

Rod Decker:

Let's start with you, Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, I'm gonna sit down, I see Senator Rambo, here, and I'm gonna say whatever(?) to the people in the Legislature, after building some good solid bridges, and I'm gonna get the input of those with whom I'm gonna have to work. But I will tell you this, the engine of growth is the economy. And if we get the economy right, if we can get the jobs equation right, today we're 17% below the national average in terms of wages and compensation. We have people leaving school that don't have an adequate job given their level of education. If we can get the jobs and the economic situation right, which is what a whole lot of other states are doing in the western U.S., then I think we're going to be in a much better position to pay for education, to pay for health care, and to cover the quality of life that we all cherish in this state.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Matheson.

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, I believe your question is, what would you fund first? And I would fund education first. In fact, I think the Governor should submit an education first budget. That should be our top priority. That is our primary obligation. I believe if we fund education, and we do well in supporting it, that we will do well in a lot of other areas as well.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[As any good businessman knows, unit costs go down with increased production.  The increase in our population should mean that individual taxes decrease as the economic mechanics of size suggest.  It should cost less than twice as much to run a government with twice as many people.  Ask any retailer.]

[Given the list of of options, I would fund education first because it is required by our State Constitution, even though I can think of some good reasons why it should be removed from our Constitution.]

[Then, I would fund health care because nobody dependent on government for health care should be suddenly abandoned.  I would work to wean us off socialized health care, but do so carefully, maybe taking as long as a generation, so nobody counting on it is cut short.]

[Next, I would fund transportation, until we can find nondisruptive ways to transfer intercity transportation to the private sector.  Transportation services within a city should be financed by the residents of that city.]

[Finally, I would put job growth at the bottom of my list because it is not the job of government to make existing businesses pay taxes used to bribe new competitors.  Most businesses are smart enough to pick a state where the business environment is the best.  We do not need to spend the taxpayers' money telling them  how great we are.  Let's cut taxes and business regulations until we have the most business-friendly state in the country.  Like the man says, "If we build it, they will come."]

Rod Decker:

Can you point to anything you'll cut to give money to education? Anything the state's doing now you say we'll do less of that, and more for education?

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, part of it's setting priorities. And I think that's very important.

Rod Decker:

If you set your high priority, what's your low one?

(D) Scott Matheson:

You know, I think I've heard you ask this question on other shows; but, the important thing is this, the first day I'm in office, I set up a Commission on government efficiency, and we look at government from top to bottom. I'm an outsider, right now. We've had a long administration, and I think that we'll find some cost savings and redundancies that will get us some money into the educational system.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Let me tell you where I think we're going to find deficiencies, and I come from the private sector. I think that we can look at purchasing. I think we can save a whole lot in the area of purchasing. Let's look at contracting practices. Let's look at the motor pool. Let's look at the relationships that have been ongoing in terms of  building many of our state's buildings, and maybe do a little bit better.

And I go back to the charter school that was built for three and a half million dollars. A fraction of what typically is spent on bricks and mortar.  I think that we can fundamentally approach the way the state does business a little bit differently.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[I have put the issues in my order of priority.  You may not agree with me and I am willing to be persuaded differently.  But, you have no doubt where I stand.]

Rod Decker:

Nothing, though, neither one of you will name something to these people and say here's what you're getting now, and if you vote for me, you aren't gonna get so much of that, you're gonna get more of something else, instead. I'm not hearing anything where you're saying to people, you're gonna get less.

I'll start with you, Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, we have an economic development apparatus in state government that needs to be retooled. And you're gonna find under a Huntsman administration that's gone leaner, meaner, I'm gonna be where the buck stops. I'm gonna be the guy in charge of jobs.

(D) Scott Matheson:

You know, the new Governor of Arizona, who was elected two years ago, came in and set up auditings and went soup to nuts through the state government, has identified hundreds of millions of dollars in savings. If they can do it, we can do it.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[Of course efficiency is important.  Equally important is to realize our government is doing more than the Declaration of Independence says a government should do.  I will work to give you less government, lower taxes and more freedom.]

Rod Decker:

Mark Koelbel is the leader of our news crew. He's here, and he's got a question.

Mark Koelbel:

On issues of the environment, the Goshutes have been trying to bring, to treat waste, on the Goshute Indian Reservation for years now and there's been a lot of road blocks here. They say they need the jobs. It's an economically depressed area. How do you feel about allowing that waste to come into Utah, or would you decide to keep the nuclear waste where it is right now and not allow any hotter nuclear waste to come into our state?

Rod Decker:

Mr. Matheson, let's begin with you.

(D) Scott Matheson:

I'm opposed to transportation and storage of high level nuclear waste in Utah on the Skull Valley Goshute Reservation. I'm opposed to bringing in hotter radioactive waste, the so-called BNC waste, into the state of Utah, and I'm against resumption of nuclear testing. And I also want to move the tailings down on the Colorado River near Moab. We've been the nuclear testing ground for far too long, and we shouldn't put up with it. And we need to fight it as hard, and as long, and as effectively as we can.

And, by the way, we've seen some recent developments, with respect to the high level nuclear waste, that suggests that we have some good arguments to make. By the way, I think we should oppose the Yucca site as well. We need to get together as a western region and not be considered the nuclear west as we have been for the last half century.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

The Governor can just say no. No to rods to the Goshutes. No to higher levels of nuclear waste. No to the resumption of testing. We're all downwind. We've lived an unfortunate history as a result of that.

I think our Governor can lay prostrate on the tracks. The trains don't need to come in. A Governor can take a stand, and I'm somebody who is going to take a stand. We have transportation related concerns. We have health related concerns. We have image related concerns. If we're going to be a state that focuses on economic revitalization, with travel and tourism being a fundamental engine of growth, that's a pretty inconsistent thing when you're out there also known as the dumping ground of the United States.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[I don't think all the nuclear waste in the country represents one percent of the risk we take every day with the live nuclear bombs at Hill Air Force Base.  We're straining at gnats and swallowing camels.  In my research at the Huntsman Cancer Institute, I have worked with radioactive materials. There are safe ways to handle radioactive materials and I, as Governor, would require that sufficient safety measures be put in place.  I believe it is entirely possible to store nuclear waste in Utah without significantly increasing the risk to our population.  Back in '94, I passed the test to drive trucks with hazardous materials. Those trucks drive through our cities every day.  Many of those materials are far more dangerous than radioactive waste.  I think much of our fear of radioactivity is unfounded.  Again, I would require adequate safety measures, just as I would expect safety for a shipment of rat poison or gasoline.]

[On the other hand, there is no excuse for resuming nuclear testing.  It makes us into shameful hypocrites in the eyes of the world so soon after attacking Iraq just for thinking of making a bomb.  And, yes, I agree that the release of radioactive material associated with nuclear testing goes beyond reasonable safety.  I can't understand any Governor of any state not opposing nuclear testing for the safety of the people.]

Rod Decker:

We had some people email in questions. Did you want to say something? You can say it very quickly.

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, Mark also mentioned the need for jobs on the Skull Valley Goshute Reservation. It seems to me, that if we're opposing this plan as aggressively as possible, we need to work with the Skull Valley Goshute Tribe on economic development and also on reservations throughout the state.

Rod Decker:

A last comment, if you have one. Or are you done?

(R) Jon Huntsman:

I'm gonna take a stand. I think everyone knows where I am on nuclear waste. I'm not ambiguous at all.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[The conditions on the "Reservations" is a national disgrace.  How can we condemn Saddam for attacking his Kurdish minority while we treat our Indians so inhumanely?  We must find a way to respect their culture and welcome them into full citizenship.  We can start by removing the anti-Indian discrimination clause in the 14th Amendment.  We can give them complete autonomy and control of their own lands.  We can get out of their way and allow them to find their own paths to peace and prosperity.  It's time we stop treating our Indian neighbors as if they were children under our custody.  I understand this will take extensive negotiations with the Federal Government, which I intend to do.]

Rod Decker:

We have a question here that was emailed to us by Mr. Steve Lund. How would you address the question of overcrowding in the prison system, and what is your stand on corrections law enforcement issues in the state?

Mr. Huntsman, let's begin with you.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, I think Corrections and Pardons probably had to start by working a little more hand in glove. I'm in favor of taking a look at the bricks and mortar at the point of the mountain and maybe moving it somewhere else. Where our growth patterns is such that right now it's a bottle neck at the point of the mountain for quality of life, for economic expansion. But I'm also talking not just about bricks and mortar, but about the programs within. If we've got 50-60% of our people who are incarcerated, who are there because of drug problems and alcohol problems, then why are we locking them up for $25,000 bucks a year, when we oughta put them through therapeutic facilities. Some of them for $2,000 dollars per year. I'm gonna look into why we're incarcerating people a certain way to see if there aren't better ways of rehabilitating those who are not violent offenders. Getting them back on their feet and maybe a little dignity as well.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Matheson.

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, we need to have a plan for our correction system.  And, in fact, we have been planning for some time. But, my priority, though, when it comes to overcrowding is to look more at the schools, the first question that we had, then in the corrections area. But let me just say this. I worked in law enforcement. I dealt with the question of finding beds for prisoners and we can work together with our state and local law enforcement communities to get the job done. Drug courts is one program that had done a great job in making this happen. And we're looking at other problem solving court initiatives, mental health courts, domestic violence courts, working closely with the offenders to try to come up with alternatives and treatment that will make the system work better.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[The Drug War is unconstitutional.  We repealed the 18th Amendment that allowed prohibition of alcohol.  We did not pass an amendment authorizing the government to prohibit marijuana or any hallucinogenic drug, like peyote, LSD and mushrooms.  Over half the prisoners in America are non-violent drug offenders.  They are the Jews in the American Holocaust. It is time to send them all home and let them choose their own lives, as long as they cause no harm to others.  The inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness includes the right to take harmful substances, such as alcohol, chocolate, Twinkies, caffeine, THC (marijuana) and tobacco, as long as unwilling victims are not endangered.  Ending the disastrous and unconstitutional drug war will solve the problem of prison crowding overnight.]

Rod Decker:

Dan Harrie is a political reporter with The Salt Lake Tribune, and he has a question.

Dan Harrie:

I want to ask you a question about the uncontroversial subject of guns. Guns and schools specifically. Both of you kind of stated an overall principle that you don't believe in guns in schools, but you have kind of waffled about whether you'd actually try to get something done about that if elected. If elected, would you try to get something done about changing our laws on that subject.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, only a good reporter like Dan Harrie would pick up any waffling on our part. I was interested a whole heck of a lot. As it relates to the University of Utah case, it's in the courts and we'll let that play out. And I'll support whatever the outcome is. I will strike up a conversation with our school districts around the state. I'd like to see how they feel about it as well. I believe, like Abraham Lincoln taught, and that is that some decisions are better made at the localest of levels. I believe in the Second Amendment. I shoot guns. I'm even a concealed carry permit holder. But I also believe that some decisions are best left to those who are closest to them. Which means, in some cases, school districts and universities, and I'll work with them in determining what the best outcome is.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Matheson.

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, I think the important thing here is that we listen to the people. And the people have spoken time and time again in some public opinion polls that they don't think guns belong in schools and churches, and I agree with that. We need to work with the Legislature on this issue. If it means giving discretion to our colleges and universities and school boards, that may be a direction that we should go. But I don't think guns belong in schools and churches, or political debates, for that matter.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[The Second Amendment is very clear to me.  The State Constitution is even more clear (and yes, I do carry my copy to meetings)  Article I, Section 6, "The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the Legislature from defining the lawful use of arms."  Since we are all equal and we all have equal rights, it follows that one person's right to carry arms cannot step over the line and violate the right of others to control their own property.  I would not ask the Legislature to step on the authority of a local supervisor to make decisions about guns. Surely, if Salt Lake City has the right to ban booze in Liberty Park, they have a similar right to ban guns.  Then, those who do not wish to walk without their gun are free to choose to walk elsewhere.  The right to bear arms is not the only right in the Constitution and it does not trump all others.]

[By the way, a background check is an infringement and I will order an end to all laws that infringe the rights of the citizens to own weapons and carry them where local property supervisors do not forbid it.]

Rod Decker:

Well, it's in this political debate, and I'm gonna, in fact, ask a follow up. Will you go to the Legislature, both of you, and push. Governor Leavitt went to the Legislature several times, and finally, they beat him up enough so that he just gave up on 'em, essentially. Will you go to the Legislature; will you fight, or do you think this is something that ought be let just sort of lie?

I'll start with you Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, we all have priorities. And my priorities are gonna be jobs. And they're gonna be having an economy that will pay the bills for the future. And, they're gonna have to expend certain political capital in getting that done. There's gonna be a priority list of mine. And, it will be on that list, but not at the top.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Matheson.

(D) Scott Matheson:

The answer to your question is yes.

Rod Decker:

You'll fight?

(D) Scott Matheson:

Yes.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[The State Constitution advises frequent consideration of fundamental principles:  Article I, Section 27:  "Frequent recurrence to fundamental principles is essential to the security of individual rights and the perpetuity of free government."  Those fundamental principles are eloquently listed in our Declaration of Independence:]

[1.  All are equal.  No slaves.  No masters.  No class distinctions or discrimination.]

[2.  All have equal inalienable rights that must not be violated, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Whatever your pursuit of happiness that does not violate the equal rights of others must be allowed. Hence, the logo of the Personal Choice Party is the smiley face, the pursuit of happiness.  We must allow every person to choose their own life, even when we know they are not choosing wisely.  Growing up means to take care of myself, to choose for myself and to accept responsibility for my choices.  Let's grow up.]

[3.  The only purpose of government, at any level, is to secure the rights of individuals.  We have lost track of that principle and I will never stop insisting that the Legislature follow it.  I will remind them of their oaths to stay within the state and federal constitutions.  Yes, Rod, I'll fight.]

[4.  All the power of government comes from the people.  The government should be standing at attention with its hand over its heart pledging allegiance to the people and our constitutions.]

[5.  When the government goes beyond its only just purpose, it is the right and the duty of the people to restore proper government.  The Personal Choice Party is designed for a peaceful restoration of constitutional government.]

[If I have exceeded my time on this answer, that's what you get for not inviting me.]

Rod Decker:

Kirsten Stewart, another question.

Kirsten Stewart:

Yeah, Amendment 3, the proposed constitutional amendment banning gay marriage looks poised to pass according to certain polls. I wonder, if it does pass, what either of you intend to do about it, if anything, directed by problems with the second portion of the amendment which could potentially, I guess, take away certain basic fundamental human rights from groups of people, single people and same sex couples?

Rod Decker:

I'm gonna ask Mr. Matheson first. First, say how you're gonna vote on Proposition 3, and then, talk about what you're gonna do assuming it passes and you win.

Mr. Matheson.

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, I'm going to vote against the second sentence of Amendment 3, which means I'm going to vote against Amendment 3. I don't think it's well crafted. I think it's ambiguous. I think it's creating more questions and confusion than it's solving problems. We didn't get it right in the first place. It was hastily considered in the Legislature. I think it's not in our interest to move forward under those circumstances. That's, of course, a decision that's up to the voters, and whatever the voters decide, we'll have to do our best under those circumstances, and that's exactly what I would do as Governor. I would work with the Legislature and work with the community to ensure that we are meeting the interests of our state and that we're recognizing that there are certain needs and rights and interests that people have. The Amendment will make it harder to do that, in my judgment, because you're putting it in the Constitution. And that could pose a roadblock to statutory reforms that makes sense for people.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

I will be voting in favor of Amendment 3. I agree with what Congressman Matheson is saying. I believe with what Governor Walker is saying. I think it's important enough for our state and for our people that I will be voting in favor of it. Like eleven other states who now have it as an initiative process. A lot of other states are leading the way on this. In fact, some have already voted. Louisiana's one that's already voted. Kansas, or Nebraska, rather, voted a while ago, several years ago, and some have said well it might hinder economic development. Well last time I looked, Nebraska was doing okay in terms of economic development, home to a lot of important corporations, and home to Warren Buffett, who's the world's finest investor.

Rod Decker:

Did you want to talk quickly once more, Mr. Matheson?

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, he referred to Congressman Matheson. You know I've always told Jim that he should have gone into law school. But beyond that, but beyond that, look, he's touted this Louisiana provision that passed. But three weeks after it passed, it was challenged successfully in court. They tossed that out. Nebraska has a legal quagmire; that's the problem. The certain thing about passing this Amendment is that we are going to be embroiled in expensive and prolonged litigation.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, this is also a classic example of the courts versus the people. We had 78% of the people in Louisiana who voted in favor of it. So, to me, it is a timely issue because we have activist courts and I think we have the likes of Massachusetts and California.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[I will be voting against the first sentence in Amendment 3.  Our State Constitution says the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land, Art I, Sec 3).  The 14th Amendment says, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; ... nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."  Same sex couples and polygamists are people. They must not be denied the equal privilege of marriage that is offered to monogamist heterosexuals.  Amendment 3 imposes the religious values of the majority on unpopular minorities.  An interesting side note is that Islam and the Kor'an approve of polygamy and this is a terrible time for us to be voting to invalidate their culture.]

[If I am elected, regardless of the fate of Amendment 3, I will immediately order all 29 County Clerks to begin issuing marriage licenses without discriminating on the basis of the sex or the number of spouses.  My oath of office will require me to put the US Constitution above Amendment 3 and so I will ignore Amendment 3 as the null and void document it is.]

(D) Scott Matheson:

Hey, very quickly, I've been hearing this business about activist  judges and I just want to ask this question, who are they in Utah? Who are they? I'd just like to hear who they are.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, it's the other states that might have imposed their will. And, I think, that is what most people are concerned about.

(D) Scott Matheson:

But if we're concerned about activist judges in Utah, and you keep saying that, who are they?

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, it's a trend that's occurring in the United States. And, although it might not be popular here, and there might not be a name that I can repeat to you, it's happening in other states and it's something we ought to be concerned about.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[Any judge who upholds Amendment 3 will be in violation of his oath to obey the Constitution, and should be impeached.]

Rod Decker:

I'm moving on. We have a question here from Scott Jacobson (Layton) over the internet. He says, how do they stand on the Legacy Highway, the movement of Trax into Davis County, the overall access we have getting into Salt Lake City?

Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

The Legacy Highway is going to be critically important. A third of the commuters outside of Salt Lake everyday head north, and I've made that drive, sometimes, a couple of times a week. And it's gridlock if there is an accident. So we need not only to focus on I-15, and I-15 expansion, but also commuter rail, but also Legacy Highway as well.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Matheson.

(D) Scott Matheson:

I think we should move forward with Legacy Highway. I think it's good that we're viewing it now as more of a part of a system, complemented with commuter rail. I think the one thing that's really important, here, is that the legacy of Legacy Highway is that we don't make the same mistakes with other projects that we made with it. And that we get our ducks in line and do our homework and not get into a situation where we're in litigation, we're paying penalty fees. But I think we ought to move forward because we need the project.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[There are advantages to living in the bedroom communities in Davis County. It is unfair to make the taxpayers in Salt Lake County pay to provide convenient transportation from those communities into Salt Lake City.  I would hope that a private road company could build the necessary highway and then charge a toll so that those who use it pay for it.  With computer technology and bar code readers, such a system could easily be installed, if the State would just get out of the way.  I don't think convenient and affordable transportation are included on the list of the proper functions of government provided by our Founders.]

Rod Decker:

Utah's built a lot of roads over the pass decade or so and it's borrowed a lot of money to do it. We're in debt, bonding debt, hundreds of millions of dollars. Mr. Matheson, is a vote for you a vote to continue borrowing and building, or is it a vote to cut back on borrowing, and therefore maybe on building?

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, we're gonna have to look at a number of different revenue sources to meet our transportation infrastructure needs. I think what we need to do is pull together a transportation funding forum immediately because we've got some big projects on the table. We're not going to be able to do all of them, and the fairness principle is very important here because we've got needs in rural Utah, along the Wasatch Front, transit, highways, and all the rest. Bonding has to be on the table, but we've got to be very careful to protect our triple A rating.

Rod Decker:

Bonding and building.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, you're gonna have to have that combination of all of them. I'm gonna sit down with the ratings agencies, as you typically have to do, and I'm gonna figure out what our capacity is. Then I'm gonna sit down with members of the Legislature and see what we're able, then, to do. But it's going to be a combination of all of the above.

Rod Decker:

You'll bond aggressively so long as we stay within what the finance guys says our capacity is. Is that what I'm hearing?

(R) Jon Huntsman:

That's correct.

Rod Decker:

And, what, am I hearing different from you?

(D) Scott Matheson:

No, but remember, we have other capital needs as well. In water, in our infrastructure, and education.

Rod Decker:

But, so far, both of you are bond guys. Is that fair?

*crowd laughter*

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, I guess I could...

(R) Jon Huntsman:

I think we can come together as far as guys tonight.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[A bond is a tax.  I cannot support any bonding at all.  If there is an emergency need for a bond, the Legislature can do it over my veto.  I am not a bond guy.  I am the real alternative in this race.]

Rod Decker:

Okay. I want each of you to take a half-minute. I'll begin with you Mr. Matheson. Introduce yourself. I don't want to hear any politics. I want to hear about your education, your family, what you do when you're not running for office.

(D) Scott Matheson:

Alright, well, I'm a sixth generation Utahn. My Matheson roots trace to Parowan, Utah. My mom, Norma, grew up in Nephi. Her father was the town doctor, Dr. Boranski(?). I've been married to Robin for 26 years. We have 2 children, Heather and Briggs. They're both college students now. Robin is from Magna, by the way, a proud graduate of Cyprus High School. I attended Uintah Elementary, Clayton Junior High, and East High School. I'm a graduate of Stanford and Yale Law School. Was a Rhodes Scholar. I've been a U.S. Attorney. I've been Dean of a Law School, and, I've been in private practice.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

I've got a great family, some of whom are here. I'm a seventh generation Utahn married to a first generation Utahn. We have 6 kids, including one who is an immigrant from another country. We adopted little Gracie Mae(?) from China. We have a proud heritage here in this state. Roots go back all the way to Fillmore, Utah, and parts up north. I have spent my career both in the business world and in public service. I've twice been confirmed by the United States Senate unanimously where I served twice as a United States Ambassador. I've worked in the corporate world helping to build one of the great corporate family businesses on the face of the earth.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[My personal life is irrelevant.  I am not running a beauty contest, which I would surely lose.  I am not running for the Olympics or sainthood, which I would also lose.  But, since you asked.  One of my great-great-grandfathers was in the Mormon Battalion and I have been a member of the current Battalion.  One of my great-great grandmothers was in the Martin Handcart Company, almost lost in Martin Cove.  I was born and raised in Provo as the 5th of 7 children.  I believed in the importance of free agency and the inspiration of the Constitution.  I served an LDS mission in France.  I graduated from BYU in 1974 with a Ph.D. in Biology - lizards to be precise.  I have been a research member of the faculty at the University of Utah even longer than I was a student at BYU.  My title is "Adjunct Research Associate Professor of Medicine at the University of Utah," though I am now a full-time politician.  As a Vigil Honor member of the Boy Scout fraternity, The Order of the Arrow, I learned and taught Indian dances.  I spent the summers of 66, 67 and 68 touring Europe with the BYU Folkdancers as their Indian dancer.  I have flown airplanes with a private pilot license and I have explored the depths of the ocean as a certified SCUBA diver.  I am currently divorced with 5 children and 8 grandchildren.  I am 62 years old and a regular player in the Tenth East Senior Center Harmonica Band.  I sing with the Liberty Senior Center Choir and occasionally I participate with the Tenth East Players directing and acting in plays and variety shows.  I am a pacifist and I have tremendous hope for the future.  Oops, I hope that wasn't too political.]

[Again, if I had been invited, Rod could have held me to 30 seconds.]

Rod Decker:

Mark Koelbel, question.

Mark Koelbel:

That ties into the next question. You both talked about jobs, and the importance of creating jobs here in Utah, but the rub has been, the criticism has been, we're not bringing the right jobs to Utah. We're bringing too many minimum wage jobs. We're not getting those companies to be enticed to come to Utah with they could increase that tax base, and pay a good wage, and stimulate the economy. What would you both do to try to get those businesses to locate here in Utah?

Rod Decker:

Mr. Huntsman, let's begin with you.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Well, we need to begin by focusing on our core advantages, our competitive advantages. Every state has a set of competitive advantages, and so do we. I've been with the heads of our research universities, we've got three great research universities, the next Governor's going to have to work very closely with the heads of our research universities, and with our business community, in identifying those areas where we do stand a competitive advantage over other states. And, I think as we look to the future, more and more we're going to find jobs that are paying more in the area of biotechnology, health sciences, medical devices and equipment, aerospace design and engineering, information technologies, homeland security related technologies. Mining and agriculture will still be a part of who we are, but we're a dynamic, evolving economy, and the next Governor's going to have to focus on those industries where we do have a distinct competitive advantage in those jobs that are going to pay more than 17% below that national average, which is where we are today.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Matheson.

(D) Scott Matheson:

Well, this is our fundamental economic challenge. Our wage structure in Utah has deteriorated over the years. We need to have high quality, high paying jobs. The way to get there is to be full participant in a knowledge base and innovation base economy. And what that means is creating an innovative and creative business climate. It means leveraging our research infrastructure in ways that we have not done up to this point in time. It means recognizing that we have to have a unified economic development strategy that works with state and local government and business leaders. It means protecting Hill Air Force Base because we need to build on the advantages that we have from having Hill in the state of Utah. It means tourism development. It means a lot of these things, but ultimately, I believe, it means investing in our people, because state after state, study after study, economists after economists says investment in human capital not only is good for the individual, it's good for the economy.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[The best way for government to help the economy is to get out of the way. Imagine freeing up all the federal and state lands in Utah for private tourism (provided, of course, that they respect the water rights and downstreamers).  Imagine developing industries that can use all our excess sunshine to recycle our water and produce cheap electricity.  There is so much the people can do if we just get the government out of the way and let people keep the wealth they create.]

[Since Hill was mentioned, there can be only one reason to keep Hill Air Force Base open.  And that reason has to be military justification.  Every job the government provides means more than one job the private sector is unable to provide for lack of funds.  Government always takes more than it can give.  That's the Second Law of Thermodynamics for economics.  Before government funds any jobs, we must make sure it is worth the cost of losing more jobs in the private sector.  The great cost of government to our economy is invisible because it is all those jobs that don't exist. Personally, I am not a military expert, but I suspect Hill should be retained because it is inland, well established, and close to substantial uninhabited exercise areas.  I would not support Hill if the only justification were the economic effects on the surrounding communities. Utah should be too independent to ask for a Federal handout.]

Rod Decker:

Mr. Matheson, Utah has a lot of kids who don't have health insurance. Kids who aren't really poor, but they're almost poor, no health insurance. Are you going to do anything to get more health insurance for these kids?

(D) Scott Matheson:

We need to look at our Medicaid and CHIP programs in the first instance. We can do some things on the eligibility...

Rod Decker:

Sorry, you've got to be quick, both of you on this, so quickly.

(D) Scott Matheson:

Okay. Expand Medicaid eligibility. Expand CHIP. It's a good investment. We can leverage the federal dollars. We can do some other things as well through our primary care network.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

The CHIP is getting 78 million dollars today. It needs to get more. I think, fundamentally, it's a very important program for our young people. I'm going to work more closely with our health care providers and our insurers to make sure not just kids, but the nine percent of Utahns who today are uninsured have more to choose from.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[Health care is not a legitimate function of government.  Neither is housing, transportation, education, entertainment, or maintaining open spaces.  I would not cut anyone off suddenly (remember, I am a pacifist), but I would work to build plans that could eventually return these important functions to private charities, where they belong.  We have rendered far too much to Caesar.]

Rod Decker:

Mr. Huntsman, say heads or tails.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Tails.

Rod Decker:

Tails it is. Do you want to be first or second?

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Second.

Rod Decker:

You go thirty seconds to stop. Stop when I raise my finger.

(D) Scott Matheson:

I think I'm ready for hot chocolate, Rod.

Well thanks for the opportunity to be here. You know, I've been saying throughout this campaign, that this is more about, more than just choosing the Governor, it's choosing a future. I believe that the future of the state of Utah is in our children's hands and that the future of their education is in ours. I choose children first. I choose students first. And I put our schools first. I think that that's the future of our state and that's the priority if I'm the next Governor.

Rod Decker:

Mr. Huntsman.

(R) Jon Huntsman:

Rod, I'm in this race for a pretty simple reason, that is that on our current economic projectory, we're not going to be able to afford the goals and aspirations of the next generation of Utahns. And I think, we, as the State of Industry, can do better. And I'm gonna get out there and do all I can to revitalize our economic base. We have a terrific ten point program that's on our web site, VoteHuntsman.com. I'm gonna get out there and do whatever I can to make sure that we have jobs, higher paying jobs, more of them. We've got to have more resources to provide a world class education for the next generation that's coming up and to maintain the quality of life in this state which is second to none.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[I do not have any illusions about winning on November 2.  My hope is that enough voters will realize that either of these fine men would make a great governor and, rather than make that choice, choose to cast a vote for Ken Larsen and Personal Choice.  If just 10% vote for me, perhaps the winner will pay some heed to my message and the visions of our Founders.]

Rod Decker:

Okay. Thank you very much. And thank you very much to Scott Matheson and to Jon Huntsman, the Democrat and the Republican. It's been a heck of a debate! Thank you!

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[And I congratulate Rod Decker on being an excellent moderator.  Yes, I was in the audience and enjoyed every minute.]

*crowd applause*

[Including Ken Larsen]

Rod Decker:

We're out of time. We'll vote on November 2nd for either one of these gentlemen for Governor.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[There is a third choice, Rod.]

Rod Decker:

Good Evening.

[(PC) Ken Larsen:]

[After the debate, I promised several news people I would email my answers to them in case they wanted to cover all 3 of the ballot candidates for Governor.  I realize this is long, but you may edit or excerpt as you will.]

Thank you,


Ken Larsen, Candidate for Governor
Personal Choice Party
801-533-8658
856 East 100 South #2
Salt Lake City, Utah 84102
kencan@xmission.com